Hypothetically Intentional

Art for Anxiety: How the Zentangle® Method Can Calm a Restless Mind

• Michelle Aalbers • Season 4 • Episode 5

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Have you ever let perfectionism steal the joy from your own creative expression? In this episode of Hypothetically Intentional, I sit down with Laura Marks, Certified Zentangle Teacher (CZT), life coach, and the founder of Indy Tangles. Laura shares her profound journey from traditional visual arts—where competitive exhibits left her feeling burned out and soul-crushed—to discovering the liberating, structured method of Zentangle. 

Together, we explore how repetitive, non-representational patterns serve as a literal pressure release valve for a stressed nervous system. Laura opens up about her ten years of work facilitating expressive art sessions for cancer survivors and caregivers, demonstrating how a single pen stroke can teach us resilience, presence, and surrender when life gets turned upside down. Whether you consider yourself an artist or haven't picked up a pen since childhood, this conversation is an invitation to step out of your rigid mind and drop straight into your heart space. 

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Why traditional art spaces can feel soul-crushing and how to heal your inner artist. 
  • The definition of Zentangle and why it is different from aimless doodling. 
  • How non-representational art silences the perfectionist critic in your head. 
  • The beautiful way art leads to personal confidence and community connection. 
  • How to handle the "unplanned lines" we draw in our art and in our lives. 
  • Using simple creative tools to find instant pockets of reprieve and regulate your nervous system. 

About Our Guest: Laura Marks is a Certified Zentangle Teacher (CZT), health and life coach, and the heart behind Indy Tangles. With a master's degree in counseling and a background in visual arts, Laura blends deep emotional connection with tactile creativity. For over a decade, she has facilitated expressive arts for the integrative therapy program at Hartford Hospital, helping cancer survivors and caregivers navigate health crises through the soothing rhythm of repetitive patterns. When she isn’t teaching public workshops online or hosting regional art retreats, she brings her regulating creative practices into her full-time work within a fast-paced law firm environment. 

Connect with Laura:

Connect with Michelle:

  • Join the Event: Aligned & Integrated Virtual Summit
  • Soul Care Support: Tap into your highest alignment by requesting a spot on our Free Reiki Grid or booking a one-on-one Soul Growth Tarot Coaching session.

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This podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute providing professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or professional healthcare services.

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Music Credit Through Season 3 Episode 41
Title: Ebb and Flow
Author: Fabian Measures https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/
Source: Free Music Archive https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/Singles_Album/Ebb_and_Flow_1829/
Licence: CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/


SPEAKER_00

Hi, and welcome to Hypothetically Intentional, where we ask the question: what if we set intentions with everything we do? I'm your host, Michelle Aubers, and today I have Laura Marks, owner of Indie Tangles, with me, which might give you a hint as to what we might talk about. Welcome, Laura.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome. Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so grateful you're here. Uh I asked you before we started if you'd be willing to set an intention, and you said yes. So what are we, what's our intention for today?

SPEAKER_01

Um, well, my intention is to get to know your audience um and explain a little bit about myself and Zentangle and how wonderful a method it is, and um just share my passion about it and how it's helped me and um helped me to help others.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. I love that intention. I think my first question before we dive deep into Zentangle, wherever that takes us, and we'll have to start with explaining what it is. But were you, were you? Are you like, was that your beginning uh journey into the creative arts, or were you already in the creative arts?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, so um I have a really good Zentangle story, but to answer your question, no, um I am an artist. I went to school and um majored in visual arts. Uh and when I was a teenager, uh I competed in a lot of different art exhibits, um, which I don't recommend doing, unless you want your soul crushed.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like there's a story there.

SPEAKER_01

And I made I mostly um I mostly um worked in watercolor and I still love watercolor, but now it's a whole different thing for me. Um so my my wish is that I had known about Zentangle when I was younger because I was very hard on myself and I put restrictions on myself as an artist, um, which don't exist because art is just how we interpret the world, and there's no wrong way to interpret the world because you're interpreting it.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. I love the way you just defined that. That's amazing. Because what I was hearing when you were saying it is like it feels to me like you're saying art is the language of the soul. It's like it comes from within and then goes out into the world, whatever that means. But I love what you said about it's how we interpret the world, which is very personal. No one can tell you you're doing that wrong, and yet we tell ourselves all the time. I know.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't that silly? And just to touch on what you just said, um, one of the things that I used to struggle with when I was selling my art, um, I got very possessive of it, which I think is normal with artists. And um the way that I got through it was that um, and it kind of goes to what you were saying, is that um everything that that that I use to create the piece of art is inside me and accessible anytime I want it. So I'm not giving, I'm giving this thing a like, you know, I'm getting, I'm parting with this thing, but I can access it anytime because it's a part of me that comes from inside of me. And um I just love thinking of art that way. And I try to, you know, tell people that, you know, it's all in here. Like you can access it, you just have to be open to it, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I love that. I love I love that I can see being possessive of of something you created, and like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm giving this away or selling this, or somehow it won't be like in my sight, my view anymore. But I love the perspective that, well, wait, hang on. It came from me, it is of me. I can access it anytime I wish. That's such a beautiful perspective. Um, and I guess I haven't really thought, I don't, I don't typically sell my art, so to speak. I mean, I I suppose on some level we all do, right? Because anything that comes of us is a creative art in some way, shape, or form. But I haven't really had the experience of being really attached to something that I created and like being sad about giving it away. But I kind of get it. I used to make quilts, like I call them cuddle quilts with a friend. We had a business and we made little cuddle quilts to go over baby carriers. And sometimes it was like, oh, that one's so cool. I mean, it was definitely not for me, it was made for someone else. But sometimes it's like the hours, the love, the time, the energy put into it. It is sometimes hard to part with.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a piece of yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. So talk to me a little bit more about Zentangle. Um, and we should start by just defining like what is what is it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So so um Zentangle is a method of creating abstract art through structured patterns. And a lot of people think, oh, it's just like doodling, but it is and it isn't because there's a lot more organization that goes into it. Um, every name, every every pattern has a name and they're non-representational. And they're non-representational because um a lot of times, again, if we there's no mistakes in art, but if if something is named lily pad and you're drawing it and you're like, well, this doesn't look like a lily pad, you know, you've got that internal voice that's saying, I'm doing this wrong, I should stop, I can't do this. Um, whereas if it's named, you know, I'm thinking of the the tangle nice that's spelled with G-N-E-I-S-S, you know, nobody knows what that is. It does, you know, sometimes you can draw it making it look like a lily pad. And my point is that um by taking away the names um from these patterns, you're just kind of freeing yourself and letting yourself go and just creating art for the the um the sheer joy of creating. And I always like to tell my students that, you know, it's nice to produce a a nice piece of art, but um the process is just as important, probably more important the way you're feeling when you're creating. Because we're I I tell my students you want to be here because you're enjoying this. And the minute that you're not, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. Um, because if it's not enjoyable, then why are you doing it? Um so I try to make my classes enjoyable and not focus so much on uh the outcome. Um, I know sometimes people are really focused, and that doesn't mean that I'm not sometimes focused on the outcome too, but focus more on like how you're feeling, how this makes you feel. Um, you know, um the satisfaction of drawing repetitive lines. It can be really, really soothing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, that was my experience for sure. I did not expect Zentangle, because I'm also a CZT. We're both CZTs. Um, I just did not expect it to be such a profound, useful tool, which I don't love describing creativity and and art as a useful tool, but it a hundred percent is that for me, as much as it is a creative expression of myself. It's it's helped me in a million different ways unexpectedly. And I think part of it is what you just talked about, it being about the process. And the outcome is a lovely little benefit, but it doesn't, it's and and I too can sometimes be like, oh no, the I have a certain way I want this to look or feel when I'm done. Uh, and I can notice that and embrace it, or I can notice that and get perfectionist perfectionisty about it, right? And they're two different things, and yeah, it kind of taught me that they're two different things and that I can actually exist in both, and I get to choose which one I want to be in. And I'll tell you what, perfection perfectionist is not fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, it's not, and it's and like I said, it's soul crushing. Um because all the joy, and that brings me back to when you asked me about my background. Um, you know, I had gone through four years of you know, art, and by the time I finished, uh, I was just like, I never want to draw again. Um I just all the joy had been sucked out of it because I, you know, I was tired of doing things on demand. So for many years, I have three kids, they're all grown now, but um, my art was limited to drawing Scooby-Doo. You know, mom, can you draw me Scooby-Doo? Can you draw me Snoopy? And they knew I could draw and I would, you know, decorate things for them and make things for them. And we did a lot of arts and crafts, but that was like that was art for me. And um, I have a cool Zentangle story if you want to hear it.

SPEAKER_00

I would love to hear it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I I went on a um, I I belong to a very uh liberal church. I'm a Unitarian Universalist. I don't know what that is. It's very liberal. Um, so I was going, I had a friend that was going through a really tough time, and um, they were having a spiritual retreat at my church, and I did not want to go. And she pretty much was like, please, please, please. So I went on the spiritual retreat. And at the retreat, uh, the woman that was running it had us all bring something that was meaningful to us. And um, one of the women in attendance was a CZT, she became a CZT, she wasn't a CZT yet. Um, and her name was Judy Engelhart, and I'd never met her before, and she pulled out a Zentangle and um little black and white square. And I was like, oh my gosh, I draw like that. Like, and she was like, Oh, it's this thing called Zentangle, and I'm gonna become a certified Zentangle teacher. And I just was hooked. And when I went to the retreat, one of the things that I was hoping for was I was feeling I was at a point where my kids were getting a little bit older. Um, I was working part-time, and I just felt like something was missing. I felt like I was feeling very unfulfilled, and um I just was looking for some kind of thing to um to feel like satisfied. And um never in a million years did I guess did I think it would be art. And um, and it turned out it was, and I just got hooked, and this woman, Judy, and I became, she was old enough to be my mom. She became one of my closest friends, and um, we went, we would go to art retreats together. She introduced me to all her resident angle friends who now are some of my closest friends. Um and uh we we we we became I became really good friends with her daughter. And and sadly, Judy passed away. I want to say it's been three years. Um and um I was asked to speak at her memorial, and I gave this whole speech about how she she changed my life. Um she really did. I mean, and um, and so did the woman, my friend Felicia, that brought me to the retreat, and the woman that ran the retreat, and I still have connections with all three of these people. And um, yeah, it was life-changing. And I feel like when you ask people their Zentangle journey, um, so many people have stories about how Zentangle entered their life like right at the moment that they were ready for it or needed it. Um, or it came at a point where they were down and it was the thing that got them out of bed, you know. Um, I've just heard so many stories, like um just really like profound stories um about how it's been life-changing for people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What I love, there's so many layers to that story. And I think one of the biggest ones that we haven't really talked about at all yet, but that's community. Like bringing people together and coming together and finding your soul family for lack of a better word. I mean, maybe that's the best word. I don't know, it depends on who you are and how you show up, but I just think the ways we connect with people that can be raw and unexpected, I guess, is is just it's so magical. It can, it can truly change your life. Um, and I feel like like in your story, it was like you got curious, you know, like she showed this thing and you were like, I do I do something similar, tell me more. And then next thing you know, it it happened, you know? You went and met people and learned how to do it. And so is Zentangle the like the main form of art that you teach these days, or do you teach kind of across the board all kinds of I don't know why I'm even asking that. I'm just curious about it.

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah, I I feel like everything has its roots in Zentangle. Um, I really like you were talking about how um like what it means to you. And for me, I feel like it's like a practice for me, like like meditation or yoga, I draw it almost every day and or like prayer. Um so you know, it's um so everything has its roots in Zentangle. So although like I might do some watercolor, um, abstract watercolor, there's always a Zentangle element in there. Um, I like doing mixed media collage too, but I usually try to get a little bit of Zentangle in there. Um, I feel like um it just I feel like it's like the the roots, and I have um we were talking about community. I have just this wonderful um supportive friend group that I've developed through Zentangle. And um one of my friends, she's a CZT, Tracy Lake, was talking about it when we were getting together maybe a year ago. And um, she said, I think the reason why um all of us have kind of branched out into different kinds of art is because Zentangle gives you the confidence um to try other things. And once you learn how to draw like this, um, and you and you do it, and you're like, oh my gosh, look what I made. And then you're like, okay, I did this, like I wonder what else I can do. And we call it like the gateway drug to other art, you know, because it really does, you know, Rick and Maria, the creators of Zentangle, say anything is possible one stroke at a time, and um, and everyone's an artist. And you can create we all have the ability to create art. Um we all have the build, we all have the ability to create. Um so I feel like it does. It gives you that that confidence and that um, and again, like you said, like that curiosity of like what else, what else can I do? What else am I capable of? Or what else can I try?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, without a doubt, I fit into that category. I was, I would, I would never have called myself an artist. Sometimes I still forget. You know, like, oh yeah, I am, I am one. Uh just because it's not, it's not a word or a label or uh or a passion, I guess, that I used to have. But Zentangle for me is much like you said, it is it's a tool. Like I talk about building a soul care toolkit. It's number one on my list. It's out on my desk all the time because it is the one thing that I know I can count on that will slow my mind, calm my pulse, bring me to a place where my mind can open and I can get divine downloads and I can get to that place of curiosity, even. And I used to be the girl who just like beat herself up because it wasn't right or it wasn't good enough. And for whatever reason, and I don't think Zentangle's the only thing that opened those doors for me, but it definitely played a really big part in me just being okay with being like I can explore and be curious and understand that not every tile that I draw is meant to be uh like I don't have a finished expectation. In fact, most of them don't have a finished expectation. Sometimes I'm drawing because I'm like, oh, I want to create this wreath or I want to do this thing, but most of the time it's not at all that. And I think it has it's offered me that opportunity to just to be okay with being an artist and looking into that and claiming it. So good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and every and every experience that you have, you know, as far as drawing, um, I always feel like even if you really dislike what you created, um, there's always something to be learned because you're like, well, I don't want to do that again. Or I didn't like drawing that. Um, or these two things really don't go together. Um, so I always try to like there's always something useful that you can gain out of the experience, even if like there's always something.

SPEAKER_00

A hundred percent. And also sometimes like I don't like it in the moment I'm drawing it because I have that like preconceived notion of what it's supposed to look like. But I do find if I set it aside and come back to it later, I'll be like, oh, this is cool. Who drew this? Oh yeah, thread like that with me.

SPEAKER_01

I know. I do the same thing. I'll do things where I'm just so frustrated I had this idea, and then I'll go back um and I'll look at it again. And like, you know, as time passes and you gain experience and you have experiences, um, it's just like anything. You look at it differently and then you see things differently, and you're like, huh, well, what if I did this? Um, I mean, there's so many life lessons that I think you can take from Zentangle as well. You know, um, you know, I one of the groups that I work with, um, I didn't mention I'm also I have a degree in counseling, um, another unused degree. Uh, and that was I I got my master's while I was raising two small children and working part-time. And that experience was even more strenuous, more excruciating than my art degree because um that finishing that degree, I felt like I was dragging myself across the finish line. Um, it was very hard. And I realized at the end I love connecting with people, but being a therapist is not um, it's not something I'm good at. I I just am not, it I don't it's not for me. Um and what I like about Zentangle and being able to to work with people through so I I went back and um just last year I got certified as a health and life coach because I was like, this is more my speed. Um because what I really like doing is I like connecting with people through art and I like helping people through art and um trying to develop still in the process of developing working on my coaching practice and developing um working it around art, but also, you know, a lot of goal setting, but um and and you know, habit changing, but ways to do it that you can incorporate Zentangle or any kind of creative art into it.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. I love that combination.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the I think the reason I started talking about it was that um I work with um so one of the groups of people that I work with are um it's it's a um cancer survivor and caregiver group through a local hospital through their integrative therapy program. And I've been doing that for 10 years now. And some of the I have some people that I started with that have been with me for all 10 years, and some people, um, I've I've got some people that are I've seen through multiple rounds of cancer treatments. Um I've have multiple students that have been in treatment with other family members that they've invited to my group. Um I've had uh I have I've had people that have lost children. Um it's and um gosh, it's just there's just a whole multitude of things that I've learned through working with that group. But um one of the things that I like to tell them is that, you know, um because they can totally relate to this, is like sometimes like you might draw a line that you weren't meaning to draw, but it happens. And just like life, you know, you could be going along life and something happens and you're like, I didn't plan on that happening, and then you have a choice, you know, you can either take the piece of paper and throw it away, um, or you can say, Well, it's there now, what am I gonna do with it? And um, and everybody in those in my group can totally relate to that because they've all had to, you know, completely had their lives, you know, turned upside down from uh from a health crisis. So um I think they appreciate that. And I I would say that most of those people in that group are using Zentangle. Um are using it as like stress um relief and anxiety relief. Uh a lot of people are using it as um as a like an like a um pressure release valve, you know, and a little escape hatch, um, someplace that they can duck into when things are getting really rough. Um and I don't care what they're using it for because it's you know, I I just think I can't imagine that there's any negative thing that you could use Zentangle for here. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and that's personal. What do you need in any given moment? I mean, my practice is different every day when I, you know, it's like it depends on what I need in the moment as to what comes in for me or how it supports me. But I've been doing it long enough that I can recognize it's it's not the same every day. No, it's always beneficial.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. That's the one thing, that's the one constant that doesn't change. There's there's it's beneficial.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's amazing. Working working with population or pockets of communities where support is hard. You know, uh um I have some similar experiences of places I volunteer or just even working with clients. Most of my clients working with the populations you're talking about is through my energy work stuff. But you just learn so much. And to just I think that's one of the things I love about Zentangle specifically is it doesn't have to be a long pocket of time to give you immense amounts of reproof. I mean it I mean classes can be a couple hours, right? But your personal practice can be what 15 minutes, 20 minutes, five minutes, whatever you have to sit down and give yourself those moments to just create some space and breathe a little easier. And it might not go away for a long period of time, but at least you get a pocket. I mean, I always get a pocket, you know. And if you're new to the method, maybe it doesn't feel that way. But I feel like if you're in a class and you have a teacher holding space with intention who knows how to hold space for maybe some heavier stuff, like what a beautiful, what a beautiful gift you can give and door you can open for people who just need it. I don't know how else to say it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I I agree. I mean, I'm so fortunate to to be a part of this program. We have we have um uh a lot of express uh um they call us expressive art facilitators. And um we've got some amazing people. We have uh one person, I don't know if you're familiar with Soul Collage. Um it's it's kind of um it's very it's very cool. You would really like it, I bet. Um it sounds like I would. Yeah, you you have images that you put on a board. Um and um she has a rule, she picks the images, the person that facilitates it. And um you you have a certain amount of time to choose your images, and um, she has a rule like if you touch it, that is yours. Yes, because there's a reason why you ch touched it. And then you arrange it on the board, and it's so interesting because she does um it's almost like she does a reading. Um because you're arranging these images, um, and there's specific meanings for some of these images. It almost reminds me of like a tarot card reading where it's she picks up on things that are, you know, kind of underneath the surface based on the images that you selected and where you put the images. It's really cool. I've done it with her a couple times and it's it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00

That sounds amazing. It sounds like a I mean, I don't know. I don't, I I guess I kind of don't want to put words to it to like take away from it, but it sounds a little bit like a vision board, but so next level. Yeah, a vision board meets tarot reading, meets intuitive reading, meets Oracle, meets coaching, me. I don't know. It just sounds like that sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_01

It's very cool. I mean, she's just one of the cool artists. We also have um another woman that does uh crystal bowl um vibe like the vibrations, and oh my gosh, if you've never done that, and she's also a cancer survivor, and um just um she must have like 50 of these bowls that she, you know, spins the the the um the I can't remember what the thing is that you go around it and um you know it starts vibrating and you can feel it throughout your whole body, and then like she'll come and stand over you with one, and it's just amazing. And she swears that part of her recovery um was due to the vibrational therapy that she received. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that.

SPEAKER_00

It's very cold. I use sound in my Reiki healings, and it's uh between Tibetan singing bulls and drums and tingsa, and I mean it's like it's in I don't know. This there is, I mean, even just music, think about music. I don't know. I love how we're going all over in creativity, because but creativity is so I mean, it's so good for us. It just like I don't know, we can be so rigid and stuck in our minds, and I feel like there's something about creativity that takes you to your heart, it takes you into that soul space, and you can't help but go there if you're truly being creative. That's how it feels to me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I just love that like this program um, you know, uses all these therapies that, you know, are you know, people would be like, you know, you're not gonna go to the hospital to receive, you know, crystal bowl therapy. But but it's available, it's a grant-based program that we're that we're operating under. And um, I'm just so I feel like I am just so lucky to be a part of it because it's the it's it's an amazing group of people. And um, I've just been exposed to so many cool um concepts. And it's really like being a part of this program has really changed my view on on medicine and health as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's amazing. So where are you located?

SPEAKER_01

And is this only local in your area or is it um in West Yeah, I'm in West Hartford, Connecticut, and um uh and it's Hartford Hospital, um, which is the hospital that um runs this program. And um I think this like I I don't know how hard it is to get the the particular grant that we're I mean there's a lot of different grants out there for like holistic um medicine and and art. Um and it just happens that our program administrator, you know, found this one. Um and uh well actually someone else did and she and she continues it. But yeah, I am just so lucky. And when I tell people about it, they're like, how didn't like how do you how does this hospital and you know I feel like too the the hospital um up until recently they have not been a good doing a good job promoting the integrative therapy portion of this. So um I feel like it's something that I like to because I feel like I mean, getting a cancer diagnosis sucks. Um and you know, then to find out that like, well, I could, you know, go like I one of the places I I do um so most of my my work is online, um, but I do a cancer support group um in person um like one one one day a month. Um in another in like a satellite hospital where it's just all outpatient where people can go and receive their treatment. So some people um you know will will like actually go get their treatment and then come, you know, if they're feeling up to it, come to a session. And um, and the way that we all kind of agree to run the sessions are we just kind of sit and create art and talk and we just let it flow. And it's very unstructured. Yeah. Um, sometimes you know the therapist in me has to come out, but not very often. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. I love that so much. So it is specific to your area, but there might be similar things around looking inquire about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I think every hospital should have it, in my opinion. And um, it's a wonder it's a wonderful program. And and we just had um so one of the one of the requirements of the grant is that um we put on an exhibit um because you know they'd like to see you know what we're doing with their money. Um so we do this is we hate our our first exhibit was um scheduled for April of 2020, and you can imagine that happen. I made a I had a I I think it's 12-sided, uh, um, this this object called a dodocohedron, um, which I think is a 12-sided object. And um, I got it from the dollar store. And it was huge, it was like this big, and everybody tangled on a different portion of it, and then I glued it together, and that was part of our exhibit. And um, we had so many awesome pieces, and um, they all eventually found their way into the they're now on display in the hospital and different satellite offices too. But um, we just had our second annual uh gallery night, and um a lot of my students came and um usually we have like two or three people that will get up and speak about the program. Um, you know, people that were cancer survivors, um, that um, you know, and they talk about their experience of um, you know, how the program helped them. And it's always just really, really super moving, and um you feel just so humble and um you know, and and proud that you know that you're a part of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I think the I don't know, sometimes there's something about back to community community events or community things that make it the meaning that's just more meaningful for whatever reason. And maybe that's not fair to say. Maybe more meaningful isn't exactly the right way to put it because I think my own personal practice is pretty dang mean meaningful. So I don't want to like lessen that, but I do there is something just so incredibly beautiful and touching about being with others um and collectively healing. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I've had um I had an experience because we were talking about community, and I like I said some of my closest friends are other Zentangled teachers, and we we try to get together. Um, we're trying to get together this summer. I don't know if it's gonna happen, but we usually go away um, you know, like at least twice twice a year. We'll we'll we have like different some of them have like nice little destination houses that we can go to. And um, there was two Christmases ago we were at my friend Julie's house in Stowe Vermont, which I don't know if you've ever been to Stowe, but it's really it's where the um the Von Trapp family um finally made it to um when they when they left Europe. Um so that there the Von Trapp family house is in Stowe, Vermont. It's a very quaint little town, and um it was like the week before Christmas, and we were in like the Vermont, like the equivalent of the Vermont Country Store in Stowe, um, which is a really nice little shop. And I was downstairs and I and some there was someone playing the piano, and they're like it smelled really good because they had all these samples of like Christmassy stuff, and I was with my Zentangle friends, and I had like the most overwhelming sense of joy. Um and I love when that happens, and you know, like when that happens, like it just washes over you, and you're just like, I want to just hold on to this and remember, you know, like I for when I need it. And I could sense that you know, it was one of those times, and it was just the the and we and when we get together, we'll um we we all take turns um teaching one another um different projects and different things. Yeah, and and I think that one um I was I think I was teaching that time. Um and I just had just this overwhelming joyfulness um being with with these people that have like I didn't know them 10 years ago, and now they're such an important part of my life. Um one of them was just here last night because my my my oldest son's getting married and she was like, Oh, I'll drop off some dresses that might fit you. I mean, like, that's how we are. We're like I call them my sisters, my sense sisters.

SPEAKER_00

That's so cool. I love it. So let's talk a little bit about how you teach to the public and how people can find you because I don't know. I just think we talked about so much about creativity and how much it can help us. And I want to make sure people know how to find you and also like how we know how you work in community and how you volunteer and how you work in various programs, but how do you teach to the general public as well? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I teach two public classes a month. Um, so the name of my business is Indy Tangles, it's all one word, I-N-D-Y uh Tangles. It's named after my dog Indy, who passed away ironically, passed away right after my friend Judy passed away. Um in fact, uh the last conversation I had with her, um, it was when um my dog, we didn't know it at the time, but he was dying, uh Indy. And um, I was bringing her home, and she was not doing very well either. Um just wasn't herself. And it was the last conversation I had with her, and we had this amazing talk about death and about loss. And um, and I got a chance um to it was very odd. I think about this conversation all the time. Um, I know I was explaining about Indie Tangles, but I I I got a chance to tell her what she meant to me and how she changed my life in that conversation. Um, so I'm always grateful that that happened. And not that I lost my dog, but um, you know, that was like the catalyst for having that conversation. So anyway, the name of my business is Indie Tangles, and um you can find me. I think um my website is Indie Tangles. You can just Google Indie Tangles, and that's me, indytangles.com. And um yeah, you can find like all my classes, like you just click on um upcoming classes and you can see everything. So I usually yeah, I teach two times a month online. Um I teach in my home to people, but that's challenging. My house is small, and um I much I I like teaching on I mean it's nice having that personal connection, but for me, I work full-time as well. Um, so uh online works better for me because it's just better for my schedule. But um and I also have an art retreat that I do uh I I participate in a lot of art retreats and participating in your art retreat. Um I've got a couple more that I'm doing online. Um I'm doing some collaboration with some other Z CZTs um this summer. And then I um I also run my own art retreat uh in West Hartford just one day because that's all I can handle right now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Two more CZTs that I'm friends with. And uh yeah, I only at we have five spots left, and that's never happened before. Usually like in June, we're like, okay, we gotta start filling up. But um it's yeah, I don't know. I think just people are just um there's something people just really like getting together and creating art. That like that's that's what I was explaining, like that that joyful feeling. Um, the joy of just being in community with one another and being around people that um that have a shared passion. It's very exciting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. When is your this is an in-person retreat in Connecticut?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's um September 26th.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Is that on information on your website as well? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, all the all your your retreats on my website. Yeah. You gotta kind of hunt around for it. My um it's at there's a there's a section called um press and testimonials. And then if you scroll all the way down, you'll find links to all the retreats. I'm trying, I I mean, I have this website, I'm really proud of it, um, because it took forever to create it. And I did not do it myself. I had I hired someone. Um, but yeah, it um it's nice. It it's nice. So everything is right there.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, the virtual retreat is coming up end of June, and I'm really excited about it. And you're gonna teach Zentala Zendalas on that one, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do a Zandala, which is um a Zentangle mandala, which you know, mandalas, you know, have their own healing uh quality. Carl Jung used mandalas in his work, and um yeah, and just you know, the the repetitive strokes of Zentangle plus the repetitive aspects of a mandala, you know, that just kind of go together.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I can't wait. I'm so excited. Me too. Uh so I will post your website and information in the show notes just because I like to have it in both places. So awesome. Is there anything else you want to share with the listeners today? I don't know. I feel like we touched on so much about creativity and what what it means and how it can help not just us, but like anyone who is if you have even an inkling of curiosity or a call to something creative, and you hear us talking about Zentangle today or any of the other things we've been talking about, find a way to explore it for yourself. I'm glad I did. I had a friend introduce me to it, and I was like, wait, what's this thing? And we ended up taking, you know, CZT training together, and my life has never been the same in the best way. And I just think, yeah. So I'm curious if you have anything else you want to add around art or creativity or really anything.

SPEAKER_01

Um, just yeah, just that, you know, yeah, like I just feel like every everyone can be an artist. And one of the most harrowing experience I had recently was um, so I I mentioned that I work full-time. I I work in a law firm, which is like the complete opposite of Zentangle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You need a lot of Zentangle.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I actually I have um my boss has stopped asking me, like, what are you doing? Because he knows I draw while I'm working. Um I have to because it's stressful. And um, I mean, it's not stressful, but it's just it's fast paced, and there's a lot of you know things that have to happen at certain times. So I, you know, to keep myself regulated, um, I'm always drawing. And um, so that I I was asked by our HR um department if I would, you know, do a Zentangle session. And that was the the the most nervous I've been teaching um because it was um, you know, showing my coworkers a side of myself that they don't really know. And um yeah, and that was an interesting experience, but I was pleasantly surprised how many people really embraced it and then asked, like, are you gonna do this again? Oh, that's so cool. Because they all really enjoyed it. And um, I was just disappointed because only one attorney attended, and I was like, You guys are the ones that need this the most. Yeah. Like, even my boss was like, Are you all done with your drawing thing? And I'm like, You should have been there.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe next time. Sometimes they just need a repeat uh invitation to actually lean in and try.

SPEAKER_01

Because I think people are surprised. Um, you know, like I think people surprise themselves. Um, you know, we all when we teach an intro class, I think all of us kind of do similar things um for for the same reasons. And um, you know, it's you get a lot of like bang for your buck, I guess. Um I try to give people like what's gonna give them like you know, the amount of time that we have, the most wow factor, because I think when you first start, you're not really thinking of like the meditative, relaxing benefits. You just want to create this piece of art.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, you want to do it right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And even with me, like when I was doing it, like I I remember the time where I got that whole like, oh, this is what everybody's been talking about, the relaxation piece. It didn't happen for me until like a year in that I was doing it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's not necessarily instantaneous, no, but there's something there that kind of keeps you coming back for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because you can get a glimpse of it and you're like, I want to attain that.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. I love it. I love I love your response being anyone can be an artist or everyone is an artist. I absolutely love that because I would have fought you on that like 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, people, I mean, everybody, we're all born with that creative instinct. And um, and like I and even like the whole meditative, like uh, you know, anything can be anything can you could like anything can be an artistic expression, and anything can be meditative. It's all how you perceive it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's that's a mic drop right there. Oh good. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it, Laura. Thanks, Michelle. This was a lot of fun.